When Can White Folks Talk About Race?

I’ve been mulling over this post by blog-cousin Sara Libby, and come up with little in the way of a coherent response.

For whatever twisted reason, I care more passionately and deeply about racism than probably every other issue facing our society right now: gay marriage, the environment, etc. (and I care about those quite a bit). Have I personally experienced racism before? Hell no – I’ve got blond hair and blue eyes. But how else will we ever get to a point where we can have an honest and intelligent dialogue on race if people like me don’t at least try to grapple with it? Again, I don’t want to make this about me, because it’s not, but if non-black people are constantly being told that they shouldn’t even attempt to broach the issue, since they’ll inevitably reveal how racist they are, then progress is impossible.

UPDATE: I should have pointed out that Sara’s post is in response to this post.. She’s not straw-manning here; she was responding to a specific argument. Leaving that out mischaracterizes her post. My bust.

G.D.

G.D.

Gene "G.D." Demby is the founder and editor of PostBourgie. In his day job, he blogs and reports on race and ethnicity for NPR's Code Switch team.
G.D.

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  • Grump

    When talking about racism, everybody involved is going to have sensitive feelings. Its no way around it. By not putting yourself out there, and exposing the deep seeded beliefs that you hold, you’re only ignoring the problems and reinforcing the obstacles that prevent us from moving on…

    In the end, we all need to hug it out like Ari Gold suggested

    • Which is annoying, these sensitive feelings. Yes, damage has been and is still being done. But we need to leave the emotions out of it and use logic and reason to accomplish meaningful, lasting change.

  • I’m tired of talking about race. How about, let’s stop talking about race until we start talking about changing racist legislation? Let’s talk about race in a way that actually makes a difference in people’s lives. Otherwise, all we’re doing is talking. And, clearly, that hasn’t changed much.

    • but doesn’t talking about, say, mass incarceration necessarily mean talking about race?

    • I’m also exhausted by the topic but still think we don’t talk about it enough.

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  • if non-black people are constantly being told that they shouldn’t even attempt to broach the issue

    Does anyone actually ever say this? Besides Republicans that is. Because I don’t think anyone with any sense has ever told whites they shouldn’t talk about race. What has been said, and rightly I think, is that whites and other privileged individuals need to come to the table ready to question their own racial assumptions and privilege, as well as to accept reductions in the latter. Now there are plenty of whites out there who aren’t willing to accept privilege reductions, so perhaps they feel that this condition shuts them out preemptively, but that’s not really the case.

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  • “What has been said, and rightly I think, is that whites and other privileged individuals need to come to the table ready to question their own racial assumptions and privilege, as well as to accept reductions in the latter.”

    In peace studies (my field of expertise), dialogue and how it works best is a great topic of study. What dfreelon said is a precondition for ANY kind of constructive dialogue, whether it be about race, faith, or nationality.

    If you’re not open to questioning your own beliefs, you shouldn’t be engaged in the dialogue, privileged or unprivileged.

  • @G.D.

    Yes, it does. That’s a conversation I’ve had before (and will probably have again). My problem is, it always seem to just be a conversation.

    @dfreelon

    Good point, I’ve never witnessed someone tell a White person they had no place talking about race.

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  • almeda

    Reminds me of a Newsweek article I read a while back. White people need to talk about race with their kids at least, or they’re going to inadvertently end up with racist kids.

    Of all those Vittrup told to talk openly about interracial friendship, only six families managed to actually do so. And, for all six, their children dramatically improved their racial attitudes in a single week. Talking about race was clearly key. Reflecting later about the study, Vittrup said, “A lot of parents came to me afterwards and admitted they just didn’t know what to say to their kids, and they didn’t want the wrong thing coming out of the mouth of their kids.”

  • Dex

    Maybe I’m running in different circles, but I’ve never encountered this supposed admonition against talking about race. I don’t know if it’s because I grew up in Canada and moved to the States in my late 20s, but I guess I missed the white person memo. I’m not going to lie: you can really feel the room tighten up when the topic of race comes up in a mixed-race crowd (I teach at a college near Gary, IN, so this happens a lot). But in a safe environment (this is key), my experience is that people almost find it, I dunno what I’m looking for here, maybe a mixture of fascination and relief?

    I think it is a fair statement to say that a lot of white folk are absolutely terrified to talk about race. Not that I’m very sympathetic about this fear. The general rule applies to all potentially sensitive subjects: just don’t be a dumbass. This fear of discussing race is not something I experienced back home in Canada. Again, maybe it’s the circles that I ran in when I was back home. I totally agree with Eric Holder’s comments a year or so ago about us being cowards about talking about race.

  • Val

    I think the main problem when people engage about race is that so much of the conversation is about what people feel as opposed to facts. So that makes the topic problematic. If people would stick to facts then I don’t think it would be so hard. Opinions and feelings can be overcome by facts if they are apart of the conversation.

    • but it’s not as if facts can’t be manipulated. One person could look at the disproportionate rate of incarceration for black men and say that it’s the result of structural problems, and the other could look at the same data and decide that it’s proof of the inherent untrustworthiness of black people.

  • I think that comment is bogus. Since when are white people told they shouldn’t talk about race? Talking about race is fine. It’s refusing to listen to people of color talk about race that is the problem. But you can talk and listen, too.

    Or, what dfreelon said.

  • Khari

    I think white people should talk about race. Particularly, conscious (I’m assuming) people like the author of the post. But go talk to other white people about it.

    Challenge your white friends and families to think about race, bring it up with your white colleagues at work, or write a letter to your white legislators (state and federal).

    If you are a white person, who cares about racism and oppression, then you are in unique position to talk to some of the folks that are the source or supporters of racism and oppression. So so us black folk a solid and talk to your peoples, we’re all kinda tired.

  • I agree with dfreelon in that I’m not black and don’t think I’ve ever been told not to broach the subject. To the contrary I spend a massive portion of my free time talking exactly about race and racism. And I also disagree with the quote linked in that while I am sometimes called any number of things in the course of these conversations it is far from inevitable that I’ll be called anything negative to the point that it would restrict or prevent me from engaging. I also agree with having to recognize the fact that there is such a thing as white privilege. It’s not really a complicated point.

    That said, I don’t feel like our agreement regarding white privilege is a reduction in a way where I’ve lost some sort of points in the same way I wouldn’t expect your pointing out that privilege exists to be the sum total of your contribution to the conversation. And it is not a precondition when/if we’ve already agreed that it is real and it exists. It just becomes a point we agree on.

  • They can talk about it all they want. Just not with me. At least, not until they do their homework.

    Like MoreAndAgain, I’m personally tired of talking about race – and I’m even tireder of hearing the average white person try to talk about it. It’s painful to listen to. I’d rather hear them talk about histories, structures, systems, access, policies, neighborhoods, poverty, education – anything other than ‘race.’

    Inevitably race becomes part of these preferred discussions but it’s not a personal, touchy-feely, intent-driven conversation. The conversations will be about the impact that systemic racism has on people. If white people want to start there, they should go for it!

  • distance88

    “When can white folks talk about race?”

    Only after we’ve listened.

  • Channing

    When have white people ever been told they can’t do something? That’s one of my favorite parts about being white.

    • Channing

      And snark aside… I’d be interested to hear some examples of white people doing a good job of talking about race. What are the common threads — is it talking about systemic issues and power structures? Is it awareness of one’s own privilege? Is it simple curiosity and openness to hear from others with more experience, personal and otherwise, on the topic at hand?

      Yeah, there’s Tim Wise, and Elie’s original article praises Bill Maher (whom I personally don’t care for). Who else? And when and why?

      • Noam Chomsky was the first person that came to mind as a good example. I don’t care for some of his politics, but I can’t deny that he’s done some really brilliant work.

        Karen Armstrong is also really great. She’s a religious scholar, but when you start talking about religious histories, race inevitably plays a role.

        I don’t pay attention to enough intra-American race relations, sadly.

  • As I wrote in my google reader when I shared this, I think there is a problematic conflation here of “race,” “racism,” and “black people.” In other words, talking “about race” does not, necessarily, mean a discussion of racism, and it certainly doesn’t pertain only to black people (or “people of color” more generally). Like, what’s up with white people talking about whiteness, being white, essentializing whiteness at the expense of class differences, etc? A “conversation about race” doesn’t have to be about African-Americans, as Sarah’s (otherwise very interesting and thoughtful) post suggests.

  • SEK

    I talk, teach, and write about race all the time, and no one ever tells me not too. Then again, if the standard is “White people shouldn’t talk about race if they sound like John Mayer doing so,” well, whatever you think about what he said or meant to say, I think that’s a principle we all can endorse.

  • cjl

    Let me just say, talking about race is a tense subject not just for white people. I live in an area that has serious racial segregation and friction. I also work in a research center that deals with social service programs for low-income, predominately black and Latino families and I am one of only a couple of non-white professional level staffers in the company. Talking about race when you’re the only (or nearly only) person of color in the room is incredibly tense.

    Is someone here (who I might otherwise have a congenial relationship with) going to say something offensive or bigoted and thereby require me to change my view of them?

    If someone says something ignorant, do I have to correct them?

    If I don’t correct them, will they just assume that I agree with them?

    If I speak my mind about this subject, will they write me off as being “radical” or “angry”?

    Not to mention that in situations like this, I have a lot (potentially) at stake in the conversation (like finding myself person non grata in a workplace that depends heavily on cooperation and collaboration) and little to gain (the racial education of my co-workers being at best a long term, somewhat intangible benefit).

    Mind you, I work with a group of people who would generally be considered liberal and/or progressive. Even so, sometimes I just wish I could have left the room on the few occasions the conversation had turned to race.

    • Dex

      “Let me just say, talking about race is a tense subject not just for white people…”

      Agreed, especially the part about you having a lot to lose (due in large part to the white power structure; my commentary, not yours). This is why I have no patience when I hear white people gripe; any angst white folks experience is more than compensated for by white privilege.

      • I think you were totally right earlier in saying that safe spaces are important, Dex.

        And it may be the case that your place of employment, cjl, is not a safe space if you think speaking out could negatively affect you. In which case I hope you find a better job or at least get some better co-workers!

  • After thinking about this more, the only thing I would add is maybe similar to Jeremy in that the conversation in general seems to be highly restricted to white, black, latino when in fact it is much more granular and complicated than that. italian white, eastern european white, wasp, southern black, west indian black, dominican latino, argentine latino the differences in experience and culture are measurable.

  • Becky Smith

    Weird. Crazy. Me (first-generation Haitian) and an Irish immigrant were having a conversation about this last night. Honestly, the best conversations I’ve had about American race/racism were with other non-American Blacks. I guess to a certain degree you haven’t been forced to internalize the pain in the same way and you can better see how the forces of American (black and white) assimilation play out so you can be objective.

    But, for real though, many Black folks don’t really offer a space for people to talk or ask questions. There is almost a conditioned response of anger, offense and passion. An opportunity to have a conversation shifts into an opportunity for Black folks to talk about injustice, how ‘tired’ they are, and how white people “should know.”

    Personally, I feel Black Americans “should know” there are other Blacks in other countries and that not all of them eat greens, but I keep that to myself.

  • Winslowalrob

    I generally pass as white (so that makes me white I guess), but I have only had one particular instance when I have been told to MODIFY what I say about race (rather than outright not talk about it), which I did not listen to and still will not listen to. Outside of that, I have never really been affected by this (and I talk about race…
    enough to justify this response… I think). Now, on the internet, yeah, I can find some blogs where some dude says WHITE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT TALK ABOUT RACE, but an obscure blog is hardly a daily confrontation about identity and language.

  • Observer

    The article that Sara was responding to was NOT telling white people not to talk about race. It was telling them not to JOKE about race. Jokes about race almost invariably come out sounding racist, even if that is not the intention. Let’s consider not only John Mayer but also Michael Richards for a moment.

    I doubt very much that the poster of that blog article would say that he doesn’t want Sara to have a meaningful dialog about race. She certainly can, and the country will be better for it. Can she then refer to Michelle Obama as “babymomma”? Um, no, I’d really prefer that she didn’t. But then, that’s not what she wanted to say anyway, was it?